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Oct
28

Some GLBTQ Activists are Complaining about My Campaign

Some GLBTQ activists are complaining about my campaign (without asking me to explain anything-jumping to conclusions after a lifetime of being an advocate for GLBTQ rights)-due to the purposeful mis-characterization of some tweets I sent. Some of them were indeed angry and offensive, and I have apologized for them. I was taken off balance by being called vicious and vile sexist words by quite a few Transwomen, who began a full campaign against me. It shocked me deeply, as a humanist activist feminist, children’s rights proponent, and candidate.

I want the entire GLBTQ community to view what was said to me and I’m compiling it. Then they can decide what they support. At one time in my life, 1978, I along with other women confronted the GL groups over their decision to include the group Nambla in their platform, and after we registered our disgust, they took a fair look at the facts, and were progressive enough to understand that their inclusion of that group would not be politically advantageous to their struggle. I feel that misogyny within their own ranks needs to be dealt with and called out now too-when they are depending on women’s support for ALL GLBTQ issues, including marriage equality.

The issue: I RT a link on twitter, which I felt illustrated an interesting intersectionality. THIS ONE STORY was about teenaged girls objecting to seeing a person with a penis in the sauna where they were showering and changing for an athletic event at a university.( Incidentally, the university chose the rights of the Transwoman over the teenaged girls, and removed THEM from the facility they were authorized to use, after they complained and asked the person to leave. The person refused and was supported, not beaten, not discriminated against, by the University). I spoke on behalf of the girls-the fact that they were frightened and confused, and yet actually graciously accepted being moved to a smaller room in the facility-proof of progressive thinking in Australia, where the incident occurred. Many tweets actually blamed the teenagers for “being ignorant” or “transphobic” -which I feel was a victim blaming mischaracterization too.

I RT this ONE LINK about ONE PERSON-it was NOT a blanket condemnation of ALL trans or ALL anything-it was about how intersectionality occurs. The subsequent onslaught of virulent nazi like misogynism directed at me was NOT deserved. MY POINT IS:-I’m compiling the VICIOUS and degrading tweets sent to me by TRANS (men transitioning to women)and their reactionary henchpeople. The level of their misogyny is akin to racist fascism from the nazi’s in 1930’s pre war berlin-The GLBTQ community needs to confront this and challenge it.

I’m for health coverage for trans ops and sexual reassignment surgery from age 8-in other words, I am MORE supportive of Transwomen and Transmen than the Peace and Freedom party’s own platform. I can’t accept that ANY kind of hatred should be excused anywhere.

Comments

  1. Really? All you did was RT a link? Because I’m pretty sure I saw tweets from you saying things like ‘if she has a penis, she’s not allowed in’, and ‘women do not want your penises forced in their faces or in our private bathrooms’.

    And wonder I if you’d be on the side of the teenagers if the woman hadn’t been trans. Certainly where I live if two women objected to and tried to force another woman to leave purely based on, say, her looks, the two would be the ones asked to leave by the owners of the premises. Why is this any different?

    On the other hand, I welcome your compilation. Transwomen aren’t known for their misogyny any more than ciswomen, so to hear this is alarming.

  2. Causticstorm says:

    I used to look up to you. That’s all.

    This is just really, really sad for me.

  3. Hi, it was not Australia. It was in Olympia, Washington, at the Evergreen State College.

  4. Rosasanne,im gay and could not agree more,we are all just people and I think it comes down to peoples insecuritiez. Sad I really wanted to adress your stance on cannabis. As a person who has worked with addicts for many years , legalizing cannabis would be the death of many . Love u and ur activism for the underdog .i would vote for u obama and romney are both assholes I will stay home on election day live in new york really does not matter anyway. G d bless u philip

  5. The fact is though, those girls might be disturbed by seeing a penis, but to try and shun another girl because of her body parts IS in fact transphobic and ignorant. :\

    To “support the girls” is to ignore the way our cissexist society defines bodies as male and female based on our body parts, instead of our self-identification, and enforces ignorance of the variety of bodies and genders that actually exist in our world and communities. They are clearly ignorant. That fact is not entirely their fault, ignorance is not necessarily a character-flaw or something, but they should be encouraged to educate themselves, not told their ignorance is a place to remain or that demeaning another girl for having a body different from theirs is ok. I mean really, I can think of a lot of bodily variations that, had they tried to kick the woman out, you would be all over them. Why not in this case?

    I have generally really respected you, Roseanne, but I think you’re coming down on the wrong side of this one, and while I don’t think that justifies attacking you in a misogynistic way, I do think anger is a justified response to what you’re arguing here. It upsets me too.

  6. Roseanne,

    It takes a big person to make an apology and that is what you did. We all make mistakes and should be forgiven.

    I do not think you are in anyway anti-trans.

    The internet breeds HATE in so many ways. It is scary. I to have been under attack by some of these transwoman for something that I said that they turned into something else totally not what I said. Then turned into a lynch mob.

    You do not make positive changes in the world by making hate.

    Buck Angel

  7. Jenn Burleton says:

    Rosanne,

    If you would like to learn more about the lives of transgender, gender nonconforming and gender fluid children, I would be more than happy to provide you with accurate, fact-based information that we use on a daily basis to provide support to the families of these kids and to educate schools, the medical community, legal profession, other non-profits and communities in general. Let’s get past all the yelling and demonizing and “gays vs. trans” ignorance and jockeying for position talk.

    I hope to hear from you, and I hope to be able to assist you in being an even more informed voice for those who are oppressed simply because they are different from “the norm”.

    Sincerely,

    Jenn Burleton
    Executive Director
    TransActive Education & Advocacy
    http://www.transactiveonline.org

  8. I think you nailed it – at the core, and pardon me for saying this, but: *never mind* GLBT issues or perspective here:

    VICIOUSNESS is never, ever, excusable. Or being nasty, or rude or cruel or intolerant or (deliberately!) offensive — or a host of other serious character-flaw behaviors.

    To take (ahem) liberties with a famous (misattributed to Voltaire) saying: “I may not understand you; I may have extremely strong emotions about you — but I defer to and defend your right as a *person*, to be who and what you are (and how you choose to express your Self), no matter how I feel about that.”

    GLBTQs do not have some special pass; some imagined ‘we’ve got oppression-credits banked up’, to be nasty. That’s just meeting their targets down in the sewers.

    And to be nasty to someone ON YOUR SIDE – that’s just, sadly ironically, ignorant and mean.

  9. Roseanne,

    I know for a fact that you love all GLBTQ members, because i have watched your show since i was a month old. You had gay men on your show and drag queens too. And maybe trans people, i do not remember. People who are after you, need to watch your show more clearly. You are the face of the GLBTQ Community, so hang your head up high friend.

    xoxox

    Christopher Michael Ward

    • Kynthia Rosgeal says:

      I know for a fact you tweeted anti trans hatred when you shouted at a follower “We dont want your dicks in our faces” you are NOT a trans ally and I am sorry yo0u made it as far as fifth place. Maybe you can console yourself with Cathy Brennan’s radscum rhetoric. I followed the exchange. Even if you delete your statements, nothing ever goes away on the internet.

      Drag queens and gay men AREN’T transsexuals. You do not represent the community, Go back to crotch (something you seem to have an obsession over) grabbing while singing the national anthem, at least you got some pity after that stupid and disrespectful move.

      Signed Trans woman, Infantry veteran of Vietnam and Desert Storm eras.

  10. As a Post-OP Transsexual Woman, I support your position. If you have a penis you do not belong in the women’s Sauna, showers or change areas. Far too many Voyeuristic perverts, pedophiles, and just plain old demented cross dressers hide under the “”Transgender” umbrella to get their jollies. I have seen and heard enough of their boasts to leave no doubt. They have no intention of ever being women, “Transgender” is just their passport into our spaces where they satisfy their sexual desires. For the 2 or so years of medically supervised transition before Sex reassignment Surgery (SRS) it is difficult to function in society, and made worse by the “Transgenderists” bullying their way into women’s spaces under our medical issues as their excuse.
    Transsexuals are a rare bunch, medically diagnosed and cured, having to overcome much ignorance and antipathy. I suspect that at most, 1 in 100 “Transgendered” are really true Transsexuals. Mostly we go “Deep Stealth” after SRS, and are just your average Jane, the same as any other woman. For the other 99, well, its a life long lusty engagement in their fetish, which they protect well. I wish they would just admit their particular jolly and be open about it and leave us alone. I detest the deception, and mourn the pain they cause Transsexuals. We are not the same period. If you have a penis, then go where the other penis endowed humans go. If you have a vagina then go where the other vagina endowed humans go. If your transitioning from one to the other, then a rough 2 or so years are ahead, so keep a low profile respecting the rights of others, and soon enough you will be able to take your rightful place in society.

  11. Robert Hoover says:

    Applaud for this article. It really goes a long way in describing the GLBTQ community, which ‘prides’ itself on standing out with all fan fare & flags. This group demands tolerance for homosexuals & transgendereds but when it comes to understanding straights, they seem to take offense to all things. Even, as you said before, when the conflict is resolved with reasonable consideration. Maybe those girls have never met a transgendered person before, I havn’t and I’m gay. All I’m saying is you need to try & look at things through other peoples points of veiw.

    All this reminds me of the segment I heard on the radio yesterday about Halloween costumes and how a caucasion man dressed up like a China Man from the Gold Rush era & he was called a rascist or ‘racially insensitive’ just because he dressed up as what he wanted to for Halloween.

    It’s those people who are so offended, by every little thing, that mess it up for the rest of us. People don’t know what to do and I think others are being taught they have to become offended by what others say if it is not exactly said the ‘Politically Correct’ way. Which is total bullshit!

    Honestly, some peoples complaints in the GLBTQ should be ignored so that those who are actually in need get that attention from the organization. This is exactly why I refuse to recognize the ‘Gay’ flag, because it symbolize everything wrong with peoples conceptions of what being ‘Gay’ is. Last time I checked I was just a person who happens to like men…. no big deal about that whatsoever.

    It is time we realize Gender, Race & Sexuality are not important factors. Those common acts of Humanity that we all share are what bind us and those who, like you said ‘throw blanketed accusations’ over people are really insecure about themselves & their place in society.

    • well mmm some FTMs sexual preference is for males and they label themselves as “gay male.” So in reality sexual preference has nothing to do with gender variant individuals….just sayin ;)

  12. Hi Roseanne,
    Just wanted to let you know, the incident you are describing didn’t happen in Australia, it happened at Evergreen University in Washington State. The woman in question was my housemate for several months and shared a bathroom with me. Even though our house was a clothing optional house, and despite the fact that we shared a bathroom, I never once saw the woman nude. Is she comfortable being nude in front of others? Possibly so because our house was, as I said, clothing optional. But then again, I’m not comfortable being nude in front of others which is why my school offered me a private shower and locker room. They made it clear however that I was welcome to use any shower or locker room that I felt comfortable in. That’s the point. If an individual is in a shower or locker room and the other occupants make them feel uncomfortable, then they should seek other accommodations. The people that are perfectly comfortable being where they are shouldn’t be forced to go elsewhere. Thankfully in Washington we have an ENDA that covers us and the schools are very progressive regarding this issue. The woman in the story was also in a sauna. Why would high school swimmers have a need to go into the sauna? If they weren’t where they were, gawking at someone that had no reason to think they would even see her, then they wouldn’t have seen her and there wouldn’t have been an issue. Don’t want to see her? Then avert your eyes. I took showers in open bays with up to 40 men at a time on multiple occasions throughout my 28 years of military service and I never once saw a nude man. I just didn’t look.
    Would you be upset if someone insisted you were a man? I know I would be. Nobody gets to decide my gender except for me. It doesn’t matter where I am in transition. Some women are non-op. You claim to be enlightened on this issue. I would love to take time from my busy schedule as a nurse and drive down to California and meet you in person and discuss this. I understand that it is difficult to grasp these concepts at first. I’m transsexual and it took me months to come to accept many of the views I have now. Maybe talking to someone face to face would help you understand. I know it helped the medical students I spoke with at the University of Washington. I’d be happy to pay my own way and meet you in the place and time of your choosing. I would only ask that I not be filmed or photographed. I don’t desire publicity, I only want an opportunity to educate. That’s what nurses do. I was almost always a fan of your irreverent humor, but in this particular case, I’m unable to agree with you.

  13. Miss Characterization says:

    Why are you still maintaining that those girls saw a penis in the sauna? LGBTQ are characterizing it as this:

    1. You hear about teen girls clocking a transwomen in a sauna.
    2. Internalized transphobia immediately assumes that means they saw male genitals. (Did thy also see female breasts?) We call it transphobic because you sexualized the act of recognizing a trans person as trans, making it about genitals. (FTM transisioners almost always have a vagina forever)
    3. You maintain that even though the media reports did not say they saw genitals but it was in the comments section. The talk of “penis” in the comments section was by more transphobic individuals. The only person in the comments section that says they were there was a teen swim team captain who believed in the transwoman’s right to be in the sauna.
    4. In the context of the conversation you retweeted Cathy Brennan, a noted Anti-trans activist who identifies as “Radical Feminist” but primarily uses her time to attack trans people online and comment on all trans-related news. She calls Transmen “Lesbians who hate themselves” and Transwomen as “violent men who are simply trying to infiltrate female space.” She created an attack site posting unflattering photos of transwomen with personal details and birth names and calls them by their birthnames. She calls idioms “death threats” and has called the police on and outed closted teen transsexuals to their schools. Radical Feminists have called out Cathy Brennan and others on this obsession by saying things like “And why is it that otherwise intelligent, thoughtful, compassionate radical feminists turn into complete assholes when discussing it [trans]?”
    5. In having the transphobia that a clocked transwoman was exposing penis, retweeting Cathy Brenna, and somehow associating Nambla, a pedophile group that was loosely associated before GLBT was coined, Trans people an allies got angry with you. Some used angry negative comments, (women get angry at men’s rights advocates, lesbians get angry at homophobes, transpeople get angry at transphobes…no one is more angry than anyone else when defending their rights or being objectified or sexualized) some tried to engage you in dialogue.
    6. The clocking of masculinized transwomen has more to do with sexualization and beauty than genitals. “Ugly” Women get called “trannies” all the time in media. “Oh, she looks like a tranny.” Clocking transwomen as men is a disgusting patriarchal construct. Women who see “mannish” and think “man” or see “butch” and think “man” are bigots. Butch lesbians and transwomen get attacked by men and women both over restroom use http://www.queerty.com/valerie-bustros-jumped-beaten-for-correctly-using-womens-bathroom-while-a-lesbian-20110410/
    7. Gender Identity Non-Discrimination laws protect people who live and experience a sex or gender day and day out. This is an oppressed class
    8. Radical feminists believe that without patriarchal gender constructs, that transgender will cease to exist. Under that logic than sexual orientation would also cease to exist. LGBT groups believe that sexual orientation and sexual identity is innate biology not, socialization as believed in the 1960s (when Radical Feminist Views were formed). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

    It is absolutely unfortunate that the transwoman who wanted to use a sauna and those teen girls had to collide. To LGBT people this is similar to the integration that happened at all white lunch counters when “negroes” were allowed to use them. Racists have all kinds of facts and figures on “black violence and behavior” influencing their racism. Racists, homophobes, and transphobes always bring up the safety of “The children” when justifying their view. It’s unacceptable. Kicking a transwoman out of a locker room for being trans is not ok. Society has to get used to trans people as a normal part of society exactly as an other oppressed group. Indecency laws, public disturbance and other laws would have a man or woman who exposes the genitals to a child arrested. That is not what happened. (their parents forbid them to use the original locker room, administrators didn’t MAKE them move…they simply weren’t going to kick out the transwoman.)

    Transwomen do not want people to see their penis. They usually have extreme dyphoria over it and take hormones which make it non-functional except as a pee hole and bind it against their bodies. The idea that a transwoman would be naked and want other people to see their penis is anti-trans and anti-truth.

    Transwomen are not men. They have not had a typical male experience in life from birth. They are often depressed and suicidal about it. Wether or not they are women has to do with lived experience. Transwomen are living a woman’s experience and suffer from male violence and lack of privilege like any woman. They deserve a safe space as well and perform gender in the current gender binary like most women. LGBT activists will fight to preserve their safe space and won’t let late transitioner characterizations and objectifications or sexualization stop the attempt to pass legislation protecting this oppressed minority group. We will work with the Democratic and Green party to make this happen.

    If the Radical Feminists want to work with the extremely patriarchal GOP to deny rights to trans people…let them. We will fight them as we’ve been doing since Radical Feminist Janet Raymond worked with Jesse Helms to remove sex change surgery form Medicade 30 years ago. NAMBLA lasted a year or two, we’ve been fighting this much longer.

    This is not NAMBLA, this is more similar to innate sexual orientation, and you are taking the wrong side on this one.

  14. Being for transgender healthcare does not give you license to be on the wrong side of the false debate over bathrooms and claim that any of us should be on your side. Your re-tweet of that link shows which side of this issue you are on. Further, your later tweets in reaction to criticism show that you are in fact making sweeping judgments about all trans people and not focused on the one subject of the link you posted.

    You just can’t perpetuate this “bathroom” issue and claim to be on our side. I don’t know what was said of you by folks on twitter, but yeah, likely they went too far. Nazi comparisons are probably never a good idea, though.

    Not every trans woman needs surgery or wants surgery. That’s great that you would support health coverage for that. I think that’s the right side of that issue. That isn’t the only transgender issue. Some folks don’t want surgery, or can’t have it for reasons other than cost. All transgender people, whether they would benefit from insurance covered SRS or not, need to pee and should be free to do so without harassment or assault. Jill Stein’s position on this issue does not in any way endanger anyone who uses public restrooms. Your position that you don’t want trans women’s penises in your face is just preposterous. Which bathrooms do you use where folks see each others genitalia, let alone in such close proximity? I use women’s restrooms whether you’re OK with it or not. Trust me, if another woman in there saw what I’ve got (no matter what that is) I’d be more horrified than her and I’d be wondering why she’s trying so hard to invade my privacy.

    No matter how unwarranted and harsh the reaction was on twitter, you’re still wrong on this. This issue hits trans people hard. You’ve got all the privilege in the world and we have none. Have you considered that the harsh reaction might be an indication of how deeply you’ve insulted trans people. This false bathroom issue robs us of dignity.

  15. I was following the tweets you were receiving and many of them were some of the most sexist, disgusting things i have ever read, for example:
    “I hope you get vagina cancer” or “I hope your vagina falls off” and various “bitch, cunt” etc.
    So is blatant misogyny and sexism a-ok by these folks tweeting you?

    I found it repulsive…sexism is so far from being eradicated and the flack you faced really proves it.

  16. I wanted to post something but because of the risk of hate speech on all sides i chose to use a short lived e-mail box

    I can understand your support for the girls being upset about a woman having a penis. we live in a society that teachs that men have penises and women have vaginas and that it is ordained by god and not a social convention and teaching by humans. They were upset and you rightly pointed out that they were moved to somewhere that allowed them to feel safe – it did not make them transphobic

    however you then choose to go all godwin about th subject and then use hate speach about treansexual women, by the way there is a difference between trans(gender) and transexual. Trans(gender) is a broad church of groups that include transvestites, cross-dressers, drag (men and women) butch women, femme men, androgyne, gender fuck, genderqueer etc
    transexuals are a group of pople who, until 1945 were recognised as being are part of what is now called the intersex community of physiologocal/neurologogical dissorders but where then called (pseudo) hermaphtodites. I’m pointing that out because you make reference to the nazi’s but don’t mention where the nazi book burnings started – with the burning of hirschfelds libary on trans people, about the first people to be killed by the brown shirts (many of whom were gay) and black shirts in the streets in the early thirties – trans people. Why were we killed – because we threated the god ordained order of things by challenging gender assumptions.

    Btw back before 1945, being jewish was seen as being androgynous – such as was the hatred of jews, if you manage to find me I can suggest a few good texts on the period including one of my masters thesises.

    I hope that your willing to recognise that you might be wrong about trans. That your speaking from the same fear that drives much of the inetrnalised hatred of feminism, that of uncertainity around gender

    best wishes

    Big Kate

  17. Oh boy…looks like you stepped in it. I was linked to this from LGBT folks. I did a crash course on this incident (including reading this: http://www.metroweekly.com/news/last_word/2012/10/is-roseanne-against-transgenders-her-explantion-re.html ) so I’m not speaking from a position of authority on it but I do know the trans community. I know that oppressed and despised populations always have pressure on them to “be nice” and “be patient” and “educate others” all the time, and I know how exhausting it is to have to be understanding all the time in the face of people who won’t even see you as an person.

    While I respect that women need safe spaces, and (as a female-bodied person) I understand fully WHY, the trans community is more at risk of assault than the female community and a large majority of our population treats the trans community with fear, disgust, and hatred. We/they are supposed to remain patient and understanding when faced with constantly being forced to defend themselves? That puts undue burden on an overburdened/underprotected community in an extremely unfair way, to cater to the sensibilities of the privileged group.

    Those teenage girls should have been educated properly about trans issues instead of being allowed to cause this kind of a scene. As the privileged group in this instance, I can’t be bothered to care about their issues with a transwoman entering their space. As a feminist who understands women’s rights, I’m not going to be irrationally afraid of penises. I’ll reserve my fear for the people they’re attached to if I feel their behavior infringes upon my rights and my space, and a transwoman showing up in a locker room doesn’t do either of those things, because I’m an intelligent person who knows how hurtful it is to act like a bigot.

    Encouraging women to fear penises doesn’t do anyone any good. Not women. Not men. Not trans people. You’d figure women would know how difficult it is to be in a position where you’re regularly at risk of assault, and would have some empathy for how difficult it is for trans folk, even if they can’t exactly understand.

    Like we can’t expect POCs (people of color) to patiently tolerate the discrimination and hatred aimed at them from white people, we can’t expect the same of trans people. It’s not fair. It’s time for us to grow up and educate ourselves, like we wish others would do. We can start with this: Someone’s genitals don’t determine their gender or their behavior.

  18. Interesting, Roseanne.

    I’m quoting you now, though, from your book Roseannearchy:
    “You haven’t lived until you have seen a huge guy with boobs talking about female hormones and deciding to keep his penis, and how that was a feminist issue.”

    The fact of the matter is – you have *always* been transphobic. Your latest Twitter debacle is nothing new ontop of your already transphobic ideals. At least admit to it instead of putting it behind “nice” words wanting segregation for us.

  19. Hi Roseanne. Many people are quick to fly off the handle without getting even some of the pertinent facts. Thank you for your lifetime of support for us, I am sorry that you have endured an unfortunate amount of criticisms, and I agree that the underlying situation was unfair to the genetic girls. By definition we have gender issues, and is never a simple solution, especially when unexpected.

    Be well,

    Allie

  20. Elliott Valentino says:

    Hi Rosanne,

    It seems like maybe you need a little more information of the experiences and daily lives of Transpeople and feminism as it includes, rather than discludes transpeople.

    Trans is an umbrella term, it doesn’t just mean “men transitioning to be women”, it’s covers a variety of experiences and optional transitionary measures. Surgeries are expensive, often incredibly hard to find or achieve safely, and are also not for everybody. A penis is a body part associated with a gender. Our washrooms conform to gendered expectations about what a man or a woman should look like. But humans are not so cookie-cutter.

    People get confused, it happens. Seeing a penis in a changeroom on someone will not make you melt. learning that people have different bodies is a part of life and a huge part of the changing nature of feminism. Look at fat politics. Look at discussions about the inclusion of women of color into the feminist movements of the last 20 years. Trans people have a place in feminist dialectic. And there’s LOTS of really amazing writers out there worth checking out.

    If you can find a way to educate yourself on transgender experiences more these reactions may make sense.

    And on a very very important note, NAMLA, and the idea that transwomen are rapists is a really tired, homophobic, transphobic, sexist, and generally nasty association that hurts. Try and put yourself in the shoes of someone just trying to pee, who doesn’t fit normative body stereotypes.

  21. You said, and I quote: “If she has a penis, she is not allowed in.”
    The trans* community has every right to be offended. No, it’s not at all surprising after that exchange that there are people against someone claiming to be an LGBT advocate then turning around and shouting at someone who calls them out on their transphobic remarks. No, your apology doesn’t magically make it ok and the LGBT community isn’t obligated to forgive you.
    Yes, some of them have gone too far with the insults.
    No, you are not allowed to play the innocent victim card when you told the person who called you out “women do not want your penises forced in their faces or in our private bathrooms. Respect that FACT.”
    The thing that should have been done is apologize sincerely, read up in cisexism and put forth effort in learning of struggles trans* people go through everyday and generally not be a defensive Rick Perry about it.
    The thing you did was make the issue out to be about you and how mean the LGBT is when you’re supah nice and have done wonderful things and then compare said LGBT people to nazis
    who
    um,
    systematically killed, tortured, experimented on, and god knows did what other horrendous things to LGBT members at the time.
    SMH did you even read that sentence
    You did it TWICE my god

  22. You may support post op Trans people but certianly not pre op. You can’t take one and not the other. Some Trans folks can not afford surgery, or can’t get surgeries dues to medical issues, or even choose against surgury because of personal reasons. Should you not respect them as a women or a man because they can’t or choose against surgery? I’m pretty sure the women in the sauna room was not waving her gentinals around, I’m she was changing in the sauna room as anyone would. The girls simply “clocked” or knew she was a Trans women and were uncomfortable. That in itself is transphobia because instead of treating her like anyone else in the sauna they choose to out her and embarrass her which is very traumatizing and I’m glad that they choose to take her side because this situation would have gotten worse for her if they hadnt. That should have been a teachable moment for those girls to learn about transgender people and how to respect them. I’m sorry I don’t need allies who pick and choose Trans people they wish to support.

  23. You know you’re losing an argument when you start breaking out the Nazi comparisons. Also, it’s disgusting you judge an entire group of marginalized people whom YOU HAVE PRIVILEGE OVER based on the actions of a few. You forget to mention that the trans women was a student at the university, and that you misgendered her in your retweets. You forget to mention that the student had every right to be in the bathroom in HER UNIVERSITY. You forget to mention the risks she would have been under if she had gone into the men’s room. You forget to mention that it was actually a PARENT who complained, and that she did it incredibly rudely. You forget to mention that it’s not your job (especially as a straight, cis person) to command the LGBTQ people to stick up for you, especially when you’ve been disgustingly transmisogynistic throughout this entire conversation.

    I don’t think you understand how intersectionality occurs, actually. Being misogynistic in the face of other prejudices is wrong, correct. But condemning an entire population for the acts of a few is also wrong. Commanding a population you have plenty of privilege over to collect people who reacted immorally to your transphobic comments is wrong. Assuming that the people sending you these comments were trans (when, from what I can tell, most of them were cis men) is wrong.

    What you’re for is requiring trans women to be, essentially, sterilized. If they’re not, you mock them and laugh at them. You subject them to potential violence. You misgender them. You are cruel to anyone who doesn’t fit your narrative of what a trans women should be. And that’s incredibly wrong.

  24. I think I’ve found the root problem in all of this. You don’t understand the definition of transgender. Sexual reassinment is not required for a person to be transgender. There are many types of transgender people, and many of them do not seek sexual reassignment surgery. Those people are still the gender they self-identify, whether or not they make that decision. The surgery is ONLY for the cases in which the individual’s dysphoria requires it. It is a cure for depression, not a prerequisite for changing IDs.

    I have friends who wanted to vote for you, who now no longer will, and it is because you do not sufficiently educate yourself on current events before you form an opinion. It took these events for them to realize that. I believe you would have more voters if you researched the many types of transgender people and what is and is not necessary to treat those people. Additionally, please stop accusing transgender people of misogyny, as by definition what you are saying they have done to you is not actually misogyny.

    So that you understand where I am coming from, I am a 22-year-old transsexual woman. I start hormone therapy in about two weeks, and am years away from sexual reassignment surgery. I use women’s restrooms and fitting rooms when gender-neutral alternatives are not available, and I do this because I am already a woman whether or not I have had surgery. Additionally, I fear that entering the men’s room in busy areas could cause an attack on my person by transphobic men.

  25. any evidence that any, much less many or all GL groups, as she insinuated, took in NAMBLA as an ally? seems like you’re full of shit.

    And now scary TRANS persons — no wait, you’re using “trans” as a plural, as if a trans person is called a tran, what an ignorant fuck — and their henchmen are attacking you? An asshole. Then you compare them to Nazis. Have you no sense of proportion or history?!

    You weren’t taken out of context, Roseanne. You insisted that MtF people are not the sex or gender they define themselves to be. You think that there’s some inherent dangerous difference between a MtF pre-op vs post-op that makes them predators if they still have a penis.

    And you’ve erased entirely people who are completely fine with identifying as simultaneously male in biology and woman in gender, or female in biology and male in gender, and everything in between all the multi-dimensional axes. This is called Trans Erasure, and you’re neck deep in that shit, because you assume that sex = gender, and you can’t even fathom, much less manage to mention, the genderqueer. You assume all trans people are wanting SRS, and that’s just plain ignorant.

    You don’t know one thing about the trans community, Roseanne. And you insist on a prejudice that a significant part of the trans spectrum is intrinsically predatory towards women, and you use that to defend your bathroom bullshit, which the trans community has been having to deal with, as their own version of Jim Crow laws, for a very long time now.

    That is why GLBTQ activists are so angry. That anger is quite justified. So you can take all your accusations of facism and nazism, which one would think belong to a 15 year old, and go crawl in a hole and read up.

  26. Was that an attempt at clarification? Bear in mind the GLB community needs little provocation to throw us under the bus. They do so on a regular basis.

    Your point was that all transwomen who have a penis should not be allowed in to womens’ restrooms or other facilities. You spoke to that effect, repeatedly, without qualification, on your Twitter feed. You hold that possession of that one single organ is a disqualifier from safe access to public facilities.

    I thought I’d take a moment to relate to you personally what that might mean. Due to systemic discrimination in healthcare and in insurance coverage, I cannot at this time afford sexual reassignment surgery. In your world, therefore, I have two choices. I can either proceed to men’s rooms, publicly exposing myself as trans, walking the gauntlet of hate, fear, and crippling dysphoria both entering and leaving, or deny myself access to any public space not within easy access of unisex bathrooms, dressing rooms, etc. Entire swaths of shopping centers, restaurants, entertainment venues, government offices, etc. would be denied to anyone unwilling to enter a men’s room.

    To be transgender is a living exercise and example of the fact that one’s gender identity is NOT between her legs. Our struggle against that misconception is the battlefield upon which 41% of us try to take our own lives. If you cannot bring yourself to understand this one simple fact, then you may now and forever remove the T from any claim of support you make.

  27. I would like to start by saying I am trans and saw some of the disgustingly misogynistic things you were called. That was wrong and I hope the people who called you those names apologize.

    That being said, what you wrote was horrible and transphobic as well. Supporting access to health care is not the same as accepting or supporting trans people. Trans people deal with a lot of crap every day just trying to do basic things like go to the bathroom. By saying “I support health care but think you should have to deal with being segregated or discriminated against in public accommodations” you are proving you are NOT an ally or a supporter of trans equality.

    And come on saying those two women are victims because a trans person was around? And for the record clearly the trans woman in question was authorized to use the facilities as well.

    Ps. the subtle comparison of us to NAMBLA or Nazi’s is akin to the rhetoric used to oppress all LGBT people.

  28. Edith Pilkington says:

    I read the vile comment addressed to you. It was horrible. In spite of that you have decided to clarify where you stand on transsexual medical care. Having strength of conviction is so rare among politicians. You appear to have that strength. You are so right about what you have to say about misogyny. Unfortunately, there are many sheeple out there, overly eager to electronically shout something ignorant into anyone’s face from the comfort and security of their home, office or coffee shop.

    I wish you and Cindy good luck!

  29. Lindsay Wheatcroft says:

    Perhaps instead of simply tweeting the original link by itself, it might have been more constructive to make a blogpost setting out your thoughts on the link and tweeted a link to that. Likewise the links ISTR getting RT’d to blogs, listing TS/TG sex criminals, written in clearly transphobic language.

  30. I’d like to speak on several issues that you seem unaware of here.

    The first is the issue of equal protection and its support in the LGBT community. Transgender men and women historically have been thrown under a bus by the greater LGBT community in pursuit of equal rights. A great example is NYS, where HRC was fine with transgender people being taken off ENDA (with the assurance that they’d try and get transgender people included later). Then HRC’s new big campaign? Gay marriage. They get that passed. Then HRC pats New York on the back and says “good job folks, our work here is done” and heads off to get Gay Marriage passed in more states.

    There’s a non-inconsiderable portion of the trans community that feels like LGB people use the community for votes and support, but don’t provide any support or votes back. Yes, the trans community still supports you, because it’s the right thing to do, but to say this sort of treatment does not inspire significant resentment would be to ignore the facts.

    Now further background. Washington is one of the very few states which prohibit discrimination against transgender people. Very few. The last count is between 7 and 13, based on your exact criteria. Washington is one of the 7, by any count.

    Now to see someone come in and attack these equal protection laws in one of the very few places that they exist without acknowledging these complex issues… it does not speak well of you.

    To compare the criticism of your (frankly insensitive and insulting) comments to Nazis… I dunno, persecuting Jews? Where apparently you are the innocent Jewish person beset by transgender Nazis? This does not seem entirely sensible.

    To further continue the issue by “compiling [the things said to you]” so “the entire GLBTQ community [can view it]” is ridiculous. Is there something to be gained by trying to further split a community that is already small and occasionally fractured? Do you think that anyone except the bigots who want everyone in the LGBT community driven back into the shadows by threat of criminal prosecution and murder gain from this? Or is this just a personal ego-trip so that you’ll get lots of backpatting and sympathy for the terrible things said to you (by Nazis, apparently)?

  31. moon batchelder says:

    i read the article about the girls, and have a link if you would like also to read it. because the girls involved said they were not “scared” or offended.
    where i take issue with you is the same place i take issue with all womyn born womyn types who are women by accident of birth and not by struggle, who then take it upon themselves to preclude other types of women from women spaces.
    like you, i was born a woman. i didn’t have to struggle with a body that belied my womanhood. i didn’t have to feel strange (except about my sexual orientation in a world that in rural northern minnesota in the 60’s didn’t allow). i didn’t feel betrayed by my own body.
    i have always admired you. i was gonna vote for you.
    but i have a transgender child.
    at three years of age, upon being told that ‘he’ would never grow up to be a girl. that the penis would never fall off. my beautiful child became despondent, hysterical (altho that word pertains to the womb) and suicidal.
    first there were the attempts to cut off the offending part.
    then came the begging me to do it.
    after that the anger at god for getting it wrong and the attempts at suicide.
    ziona didn’t want to dress like a girl, she wants to marry a girl someday and isn’t into dresses and makeup. she’s a girl like i was…only she has a birth defect
    the comment you made that pissed me off the most was the one about not wanting a penis waved around in your face…
    imagine waking up tomorrow with on attached to your body!
    my daughter can’t even to this day bear to look at or touch the boy part!
    do some research and you’ll find that this is a medical condition. that there are those who are born with brain chemistry that is in opposition to their bodies.
    my daughter deserves better than what your twitter comments and attitudes express therein convey.

  32. http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2012/10/29/some-transgender-people-owe-roseanne-barr-an-apology/

    Jillian is a trans person who supports your efforts.
    So do I.
    peace.

  33. If you were really not transphobic, you wouldn’t have called trans women “TRANS (men transitioning to women)”

  34. Christina Johnson says:

    I’m a transwoman. Which facilities do you expect me to use? You never really answered that question.

  35. The victim was the trans woman. Not the teenage girls. The trans woman went about her business and was complained about for the simple crime of being herself.

    Your tweets were offensive because it sounded like you were saying that she was dangerous because she was a trans woman. Because she had a penis she must have been waving it around like a parade baton and the teenagers were in danger. That she was someone who had to be removed. When the fact remains, why were the teens looking at peoples genitals in the first place?

    This may not have been your intention but looking at your twitter feed it appears that you tweet things to stir things up (sometimes for good reason, sometimes to advocate mandotory surgery on babies testicles) and if anyone disagrees with you then they are automatically, a sexist. That is not to say that you have not recieved some very sexist tweets. But you were even rude and offensive to people who weren’t being sexist and who were just disagreeing with you which you have a history of doing.

    You are a public figure and you belittled a member of a minority. That is why you recieved such a violent backlash and whilst there is not justifying the horrendous sexism you have recieved it does not make what you did a nice thing. In fact it was horrible. And deeply upsetting.

    This was your fault, and deflecting blame onto some sexist internet trolls does not change that.

  36. Problems: 1) Why is it that the girls were showering and changing in the sauna? 2) NAMBLA is an organization of pedophiles. Trans people are not, and, generally speaking, we get in, change or whatever, get out and THERE IS NO PROBLEM. So why the “if she has a penis, she is not allowed in.” tweet? 3) Incidentally, NO, the university did not choose anyone’s rights over anyone’s rights, and removed NO ONE from the facilities they were ALL authorized to use. 4) The parents and/or the girls ELECTED (not “accepted”) the use of the smaller, separate facility. 5) The other coach and girls team authorized to use the facilities have no problem with the trans woman’s presence and they continue to use the facilities with no problem.

    I imagine you read some 2nd hand, hateful, radfem site to establish your opinion on this non-issue. Read from the source, okay?

    That black people might “frighten and confuse” white women and children was an argument for bathroom segregation in Jim Crow times, too, don’t you know? Change the nouns, and it is still the same argument. Heaven forbid the women and children be exposed to… atypical skin color *ahem* anatomy and physiology.

    I, for one, use the ladies’ locker rooms all the time at my gym, and no one bats an eyelash. They may, if they peak over the bathroom stall I’m changing my pants in or the shower stall I’m washing up in, but that would be their curiosity killing their cats (as I have a reasonable expectation of privacy in a stall). And I do that by my good graces, as I am legally protected changing my pants in the main area. If most of us don’t like our genitalia, then what makes you think that most of us parade them around, and that all of us should be banned by our genitals. Are you, personally, going to check every skirt?

    If you’re for trans rights, then get on them, and stop trying to make certain women’s lives harder by perpetuating a myth that we are freaks and pedophiles out to “shove our genitals down your throats” like LGB people “shove their sexuality down right winger’s throats.”

  37. I would have to say as a bystander watching this thing unfold I have been thoroughly disheartened. I felt and still feel a lot of hate from all sides resulting from this one tweet. I am almost (more) ashamed to admit I am a trans woman after seeing the hate that other trans ladies spit at rosanne. I am also a little shocked and hurt to see rosanne sink to their level in retaliating to their attacks. Honestly I do not know enough about the specific article that started all this to comment on that aspect. I do know if we can’t have civil conversation about it then I will be forced to continue living in fear of being the next Brandon Tina because I had to pee.

  38. Pat Gargaetas says:

    As an old dyke who quit marching in Pride parades because I did not want to be in an event with NAMBLA, I cheer for your support of women to safe women’s space. While I do not support reassignment surgery for minors, unlike the so-called trans-activists who are attacking you, I do not believe we must all agree about everything. You are a perfectly excellent revolting hag.

  39. With quotes such as this:

    “You haven’t lived until you have seen a huge guy with boobs talking about female hormones and deciding to keep his penis, and how that was a feminist issue.”

    And in this, comparing the trans community to NAMBLA in the context of wanting us “reviewed”, it’s not hard to see you as being a a transphobe, a bigot, and above all else, a hypocrite. Trying to deflect by compiling terrible things said by people who disagree with you is still ignoring the issue at hand. Transwomen ARE women, and what you’re doing is perpetuating misogyny against other women.

  40. Andrea Humphrey says:

    thanks for your courage, Roseanne. you’ve got a lot of support out here.

  41. Also, some fact checking:

    – Nowhere was it reported that the woman in the sauna’s genitalia were exposed or seen by anybody.

    – Nowhere has it been reported whether the woman even still had a penis.

    – Whether she did or not, she was there legally according to Washington state law. Kicking her out would be discrimination.

    – No girls were “removed” from the locker room. Those who had a problem with it were offered access to an alternative locker room (which is an accommodation which the University was IN NO WAY required to offer them.)

    – The captain of one of the two swim teams, speaking on behalf of many of her teammates, reported that they had zero problem with that woman being there.

    Roseanne, you can’t claim to be an ally of transgender rights and then turn around and treat pre-op and non-op transsexuals as freaks who children need to be shielded from. The fact is that many transsexuals (including MOST trans-men) never have the surgery to correct their genitals, due to many reasons including safety, health, and expense. And those who do are often unable to do so before spending YEARS living as their target identity before correcting this one last detail.

    To invalidate their identities over this is to invalidate their very humanity. Some men have vaginas and some women have penises. Get over it.

  42. Interesting revision of what transpired, and interesting that you intend to compile and reprint all the angry things people said to you while deleting and hiding all the hateful and inappropriate things you said which set them off.

    Here’s another take on it, which I sincerely hope everyone takes the time to read:

    http://www.transadvocate.com/what-did-roseanne-say-that-was-so-transphobic.htm

  43. background spinner says:

    Hi,

    The situation with the man who was granted permission to use the women’s locker room happened in Washington State, US, not Australia.

    http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/10/07/olympia-wa-school-officials-state-gender-identity-provision-overrides-title-ix-equality-for-girls-swim-teams/

    I am also concerned about this statement: “I’m for health coverage for trans ops and sexual reassignment surgery from age 8…” Could you clarify this, please? I think such surgery is tantamount to child abuse.

    I’m deciding between you and Stein, and I think a lot of people need answers pretty quickly.

    Thanks.

  44. Really? You a white, straight woman are appropriating the struggle of people who faced genocide not even a century ago? Shows what you know about intersectionality. Also, you do not get to dictate to queers the direction our movement should take to be “politically expedient”. We’re not a PR movement, we’re a movement of people who deserve respect and rights we don’t get.

    Those bigotted little freaks need an education, not coddling. They had no business eyeballing people’s genitals. They should have just been getting changed and minding their own business.

    On one hand, you say you support the right of trans* people to live as their true gender. And yet, you oppose the reality of it.

    Grow up. Admit you’re wrong and move on. You’re insulting the dignity of people I love, who happen to have been born with penises and villified for it ever since. That makes you scum of the earth.

  45. I see, not only we are a bunch of fascist misogynists, we were also pedophiles before you intervened!

  46. Roseanne … you rock! Tell it as it is! Let’s not pretend the emperor has no clothes and making that point is not hateful or emperor-phobic!

    Here is something a friend wrote for a FB group the other day. I hope you find it as powerful as I do. :)

    So, as we all know, there are many men who feel entitled to women’s bodies, and the spaces we inhabit, they will do what they can to dominate us, or at the very least, intimidate us. There are so many ways that they do this, and one of them which seems to be enjoying some support from the trans/genderqueer community is in invading sex-separate spaces. Many of you have seen the articles on the man in prison for murdering his wife, who is now engaged in getting himself transferred into the women’s section, after undergoing hormone treatments and a “sex change.” I’ve also seen postings, blogs from various trans/genderqueers, expressing the need to eliminate sex-separate bathroom/locker facilities, or as they say create “gender neutral” facilities. I don’t even understand what gender-neutral is s’pose to mean, seeing as there really is no such thing as a neutral gender, but the purpose of it is to help transfolk feel safe in using public bathrooms/locker rooms/etc., and to help them feel less like they don’t belong. For many years, I (as many of you) have had a certain level of anxiousness when thinking about entering a public bathroom/locker room, it’s that feeling of fear, about being seen as a male, and either given “the look”, yelled at, or having security called on me. It usually gets settled pretty quickly that I’m not in the wrong bathroom, that I am actually female, and it’s okay, but the message that is always sent, is that the way that I inhabit my body, my clothes, my style, is not a valid form of female expression, and it ALWAYS bothers me. I’ve responded with anger, with impatience, with judgement, with sarcasm, with ignoring, with humor, etc. It’s still an issue, it still requires the educating of the public, but I’m actually not seeing it the same way, as I have in the past. Now, I’m inclined to be more patient, more compassionate, more understanding. Now I’m appreciating the fact that the women who give that look, who yell, who call security, are doing it to protect themselves from the presence (albeit mistaken) of and/or possible threat from males in those areas. No one can tell a rapist/child molester/murderer by looking at them, they come in all shapes, ages, sizes, ethnic, educational/economic, religious, geographical backgrounds, but almost all of them ARE male, so the best defense we have is to treat men (especially men we don’t know), as possible threats/danger, ‘cos the reality, is that they are. We don’t meet their eye when we are walking down the street, we don’t return their greetings, we don’t feel comfortable when a man is paying too much attention to our children, and we don’t feel comfortable with men in the same public bathrooms/locker rooms, as us. Seems reasonable, but what I’m seeing is that more and more, we are being judged for using snap judgement when it comes to these types of situations. I’ve heard transguys complaining about no longer being able to look adoringly (or even at all for longer than 10 seconds) at little kids, or complimenting children to their parents, and in response, I’m seeing a push by transfolk, and transactivists to guilt/shame womyn for this. I’m seeing womyn being manipulated into believing that it’s wrong to make snap decisions about their safety, their children’s safety, that we should not just decide that every/any man is a possible threat, that we are stereotyping, pre-judging, and discriminating. It really bothers me, and it actually scares me, that one of the very few defense mechanisms, that we have developed in dealing with the violence against womyn, is being whittled away, that we are being told we are wrong, bad, unenlightened, etc., and that this is being done, so that transfolk can feel free to use whatever bathroom, they choose. Many transfolk (most it seems) express a desire to eliminate separate spaces, I’ve heard many say that they are an outdated practice, unnecessary, and cause lots of problems (some dangerous) for transfolk. In my opinion, this is putting the cart before the horse, and it is very dangerous for womyn and children. The body parts of transfolk may or may not have changed for them, but violence towards womyn, has NOT, and until it does, there is nothing okay about shaming womyn for doing what they need to do, to be as safe as they can be. My approach now, is to smile at the womyn, acknowledge her fear, and reassure her with my voice, doing this, lets her know that I am also what a womyn looks like, that I share her vulnerabilities, as a woman, AND, that I am on her side when it comes to making sure there are no men/threats around. I honor her willingness to be seen as “impolite”, “causing a scene”, “stereotyping”, in order to feel safe.

  47. Denise Yader says:

    Roseanne, I agree there was a lot of horrible things said to you but you aren’t owning up to what you actually said. You called the trans woman a predator. You also said she was waving a penis at the girls. As far as I know, this was libel. Perhaps you should focus time on thinking about that and re-approaching the situation. You said a lot of VERY transphobic thing sand grouped an entire community under it.

  48. donna oppenheim says:

    Hi Roseanne,
    Thanks for standing up for women and girls. Also, sorry for the ugly, violent, misogynist ways people have spoken to you since. Are you sure you mean you’re in favor of sexual reassigment surgery from AGE 8? I was thinking you may have meant 18. If you did mean 8 years old, could you please explain? Also, I believe the incident in the sauna occured in the pacific northwest, USA.
    Take care,
    Donna

  49. Carolyn in Baltimore says:

    Roseanne-
    I appreciate your standing up for women within the LGBT movement. We have been feeling invisible. Like the transwomen are the only ‘women’ getting attention. Custody issues are boring next to prostrate gynecology. Gay men have not gotten any less sexist than they were in the 1970’s.

  50. Denise Bowen says:

    I understand your frustration and incomprehension of the amount of bile which was spewed out at you. I used to be much more “liberal” in my thinking until, year after year, I realized that most of the really virulent and spiteful behavior I had ever experienced in my life came from exactly those who claim to be the most free-thinking or liberal or put-upon groups. Most of the nasty, rude, hateful and menacing behaviors are associated with those who say they are just supporting or looking out for the downtrodden. Whatever that means! But, whatever it means, if you don’t agree AND kiss ass in the process, they will put you in a world of hurt. I agree with you about the teenaged girls and if I was a father, there would probably be one less asshole with a penis to make my daughter feel threatened in her locker room! I just don’t understand why we are being told to subvert ourselves to an outrageous few!