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Jul
26

a democratic israel

is the answer, not an anhilation of the entire state and/or all jews in it.  I like that Israel allows Jews to live in Jerusalem. I like the fact that there is a jewish state, and that there should be one as long as the Vatican exists, which has as it’s goal the death of all Jews, as does all of Christianity.  When the latter two disappear from the earth, then I will not be in favor of a Jewish State, but as long as they exist, I will.  Jews are tired of being the collateral damage of bankers, and the objects of hate to Christians.

Comments

  1. LovetheLove says:

    “I hope for the day when all religions disappear, including Judaism. All are obsolete and fearmongering and mean nothing, IMHO.”
    SPOT ON. Roseanne, this is the bottom line of this entire thread. Fuck, you’re intuitive!

  2. Your comment on my quote: “The entire scope of the western world’s knowledge has been censored by Zionists and their interests” –Is: “I’m not even sure this merits a response. If you don’t think that statement itself is ignorant arrogant, I don’t know what is.”
    My response to you–you have taken what I wrote here totally out of context—it is a fact that Zionists have censored the western world’s news and information about how Ben Gurion joined with Hitler’s Reich to deport Jews from Europe and demanded that they only be allowed to go to Israel, and not anywhere else (including Madagascar–where Hitler originally intended to send many of them). They were used by Zionists to found Israel, who tried to prevent them from fleeing Germany for Madagascar, and even America, and sacrificed by Israeli leaders for political purposes (NOT SAVED AT ALL!) Ben Gurion died feeling guilty for this, and expressed his remorse on his death bed. Their corpses are still used politically by Israel’s corrupt leadership, referenced every single time palestinians are subjected to fascist murder and oppression. Zionists need to let my dead cousins, aunts and uncles, and great grandparents rest in peace–their blood is mine, not yours. They died as martyrs of fascism, not as martyrs for fascist Israel. Stop using their memory to justify killing other innocents.

  3. Josh—your quote “I may be too focused on this, but it bothers me to no end when people categorize Jews as a race and not a religion. I’ve seen it countless times incorporated into all sorts of antisemitic rhetoric, and it’s simply ridiculous. The fact is that, in this regard, Judaism is no different from any other religion.—
    from me: I said ‘Ethnic group’, not race–indeed it is not a race, as there are ethiopian and semitic(sephardic) jews, as well as the German, eastern european jews. I have often written about the racism of intra judaistic sects. It is an absolute fact that jews of German descent have more wealth than any other ethnic group on earth, and it is also fact that these jews are in power in Israel, and in control of Aipac here in the US.
    Your quote:
    “For about 1900 years, Jews didn’t have that, and, most unfortunately, countless numbers died hopelessly as a direct result.”
    –From me: Jews have ALWAYS LIVED IN THE MIDDLE EAST, in peace with their neighbors, until Zionists took over. They use the lie that the state of Israel has saved Jewish lives, when it has cost the lives of many jews and generations of their children who serve in its armed forces in constant war against its neighbors, and made the world more unsafe for all Jews.
    ” That isn’t the case anymore. Aren’t you proud of that fact? Assuming you have relatives who were either survivors or (God forbid) victims of the Holocaust, I would imagine that you must be.”
    from me: This is always thrown at me by jewish people, and it is a real stomach turner for me—(first because their corpses shouldn’t be reference points for political discussions)– Yes, my maternal grandmother’s entire family, her twelve siblings and her parents and grandparents were marched out of Aborniki Lithuania to the forest where they were forced by Nazis to dig their own graves, and then buried alive with help from their neighbors, who subsequently stole their farm. On my paternal side, were polish and czech jews killed in ghettos and death camps. The only living relatives I had as a child were those who had escaped to America, and one to Israel as a smuggled five year old.
    However—in my worldview, they died because of fascism, and I do not support fascism even when Jews bring it. The Jewish people died for International Laws against genocide, to me, not for a state that practices genocide.
    Your quote:
    “This doesn’t mean that Israel is above criticism; many of its staunchest supporters can confirm for you that they don’t believe Israel is. But there needs to be a balance of thought in evaluating the good and the bad.”
    —From me: “Do you consider Fascism to be bad, or good sometimes, if it has an Israeli face? In evaluating the good and the bad, do you consider that the breaking of International Laws against collective punishment of a captive population, and the firing upon unarmed civilians, as Israel continues to do, as bad or as good?

  4. for josh: first, hi!—“Jewish people have more money than any other ethnic group in the world” — this is a ridiculous thing to say at this point in history, as Judaism is no longer defineable as a race. It is purely a religion, with plenty of converts from all ethnicities. —from me: (If it’s a religion, then why are more than forty percent of those who define themselves as ‘jewish’,also self defined atheists?)

  5. Thanks for using the word “ignorant”–it is quite conducive to continued communication between two people (NOT). I meant Zionist American Jews–they are overwhelmingly in favor of Palin. Check those figure out!

  6. By the way, over 75% of American Jewry voted for Obama, so I’m not sure what made you say that “American Jews love Palin”. That’s also kind of ignorant.

  7. Okay, so we’re in agreement over some of this, but not much.
    Although I agree with you that Jane’s “googling” and subsequent ill-informed conclusion constituted ignorance, I also see some of what you’ve said as very ignorant.
    “Jewish people have more money than any other ethnic group in the world” — this is a ridiculous thing to say at this point in history, as Judaism is no longer defineable as a race. It is purely a religion, with plenty of converts from all ethnicities. To highlight the acceptance of converts by mainstream Judaism, I invoke the fact that a bill proposed in Israel was rejected by PM Netanyahu which would have prevented Jews converted through the conservative movement from obtaining Israeli citizenship:
    http://www.jewishvoicesnj.org/news/2010-07-28/Editorial/Conversion_bill_threatened_unity_of_Israel_and_Dia.html
    I may be too focused on this, but it bothers me to no end when people categorize Jews as a race and not a religion. I’ve seen it countless times incorporated into all sorts of antisemitic rhetoric, and it’s simply ridiculous. The fact is that, in this regard, Judaism is no different from any other religion.
    “The entire scope of the western world’s knowledge has been censored by Zionists and their interests” — I’m not even sure this merits a response. If you don’t think that statement itself is ignorant arrogant, I don’t know what is.
    I agree with you that the oligarchic system in Israel isn’t worthy of service to the people; I don’t like the fact that the same individuals have been re-circulating in the Knesset for decades without fresh faces with fresh ideas. That being said, Israel has been and continues to be a safe haven for Jews. For about 1900 years, Jews didn’t have that, and, most unfortunately, countless numbers died hopelessly as a direct result. That isn’t the case anymore. Aren’t you proud of that fact? Assuming you have relatives who were either survivors or (God forbid) victims of the Holocaust, I would imagine that you must be.
    This doesn’t mean that Israel is above criticism; many of its staunchest supporters can confirm for you that they don’t believe Israel is. But there needs to be a balance of thought in evaluating the good and the bad.

  8. ps–jane you are so ignorant and arrogant that I am going to ban you from here.

  9. Hey, Jane, I understand that googling one reference might be enough for you, but it isn’t enough for me or for most intelligent people, who are not afraid of truth. There are MANY books on the subject, too…I have read many many of them. You need to read books by Russian authors to find the things I talk about, as the entire scope of the western world’s knowledge has been censored by Zionists and their interests. It was not New York Bankers at all who brought Hitler to power, it was German Industrialists who were attempting to head off the socialist movement there. Many many of those industrialists were German Jews. They liked Hitler at first, just as American Jews love Palin and the republican fascists here–because they support Israeli fascism. Read an actual book on the socialist movement in pre-Hitler Germany sometime.

  10. Actually, I did google this and found 1 link with a dvd on the subject, hardly the mass of info you talk about….
    It talks about how “new york bankers” funded the rise of national socialism and communism….and by the way, “googling” something does not constitute proof as the internet is full of myths masquarading as fact…and maybe you should stop “educating” yourself through it…

  11. .
    Jane, you can google the info yourself. It is not a far right canard that jewish industrialists backed the right wing government in germany, thinking that they would keep wages down and smash labor unions that way, it is fact—it is not my responsibility to inform or educate you when you refuse to do it yourself. Read about labor unions, zionism and national socialism in post ww 1 Germany yourself. Tons of info exists on the subject.

  12. Actually no, I did not miss your point.
    You make the implication that jewish bankers actions are leading to punishment of all jews. You don’t question why that should be, but blame the “bankers” for bringing punishment on all jews…You imply that these bankers are jewish in a thread attacking anti semitism.
    You then try to change the topic by bringing out the far right canard about jews supporting Hitler…give me an example of a jewish industrialist who supported Hitler.

  13. Religion has no place in government…hasn’t history proven that time and time again? Hate, oppression, and injustice is bred from extremism and ignorance. Roseanne, I agree that much of organized religion is obselete. Can’t people just believe in whatever they choose without trying to discredit or degrade what others choose to believe?

  14. i started this thread as a discussion that leads in a few different directions. I am conflicted at times on the subject of whether there should be a Jewish State in the middle east or not. Last night, though I watched a documentary about the wall and Israle’s military and I am completely and thoroughly disgusted by Israel again.

  15. josh–jewish people have more money than any other ethnic group in the world. Israel has the world’s third largest military too. It really is time to stop talking about being a persecuted minority. It is time for Jews to join the struggle for democracy, feminism and social justice in Israel and everywhere else on earth. Separatism is what oppresses Jews. The idea that we are “chosen” by G-d invites the opposite extreme–ghettos pogroms annhilation. Time for Jews to step out of bronze age thinking, and lead the way to enlightened rational self interest. Most Jewish people have already done that, and more are doing it every day. I want to see Israel become a democracy, and not a theocracy, but that is the way it is going now. I hope to swing that opinion by writing about it and joining with Left leaning groups and people in Israel.
    I don’t support the state of Israel’s policies now, and hope that they will begin to obey international law, but it looks like it isn’t going to do that any time soon. All moral people need to stop supporting immoral right wing Oligarchies that prey on the unarmed and the helpless, as Israel does.
    Being a Jew, to me, means being a revolutionary against all unjust law.

  16. I hope for the day when all religions disappear, including Judaism. All are obsolete and fearmongering and mean nothing, IMHO.
    Jane: You miss the point completely and are arrogant about doing so–read some history–read about how the” german” industrialists who brought Hitler to power were largely jewish, and then return here and comment. It is always good to have some idea of what you are talking about.

  17. “collateral damage of bankers”
    And why is that…? Because of Anti Semitism maybe…
    Nice try…invoking an anti semitic stereotype in the middle of a post decrying the anti-semitism of “christianity” and the vatican.

  18. Roseanne, the main problem I have with your argument is that it’s not simply “the Vatican” and “all of Christianity” that is out to destroy Israel and the Jews. A plethora of political and cultural groups are categorically hellbent at doing what they can to limit Jewish success and livelihood. If Christianity were to disappear, Jews would still continue to exist as a target by a great many in the world. That’s why Israel exists as it does, and I’m glad it does.

  19. ritchiepage2001 says:

    I don’t hate you. :)